The following Facebook conversation happened months ago. The original poster is more rational than many FB posters, but of particular interest in this thread is his continual denial that he bears any reasonable responsibility for attempting to reform the nation’s corrupt government. You will see that I correct several of his facts and his logical arguments throughout, but even so, was not able to disabuse him of his insistence that he is not responsible for steering the ship of state on his watch.
Original Poster (OP)
Just in case you forgot I’m here to remind you, “free market capitalism is still the best path to prosperity”.Jack
Yes, but no one seems to know what that really means. We have never had a true “free market capitalism” here. Instead, the whole system serves primarily to the benefit of a privileged few, while the rest of us are allowed to gather whatever crumbs we may. And wouldn’t you know it—this leaves the door open for those who want to say that “capitalism doesn’t work”. It matters very little to them that what we have is not really capitalism.OP
It is still the best path to prosperity.
Jack, we still have the best economy in the world, although I agree it’s not a pure “free market.”Jack
OP, that’s no consolation to me, for it is still flatly against our national creed that “all men are created equal”. It matters very little how “good we have it” if that creed lies in the dust of hypocrisy and corruption. Ironically, those who are constantly praising our nation for being “the greatest in the world” are the ones who COULD be improving it back to the standards set for it in the Declaration and the Constitution. It’s similar to personal character: I care very little if I am more charactered than the next guy; I still have more to attain and to learn and to accomplish. The other guy is no motivation to me to keep growing; I am self-motivated from principle.America, however, is nothing like this; we celebrate every four years our stubborn habit of choosing as president a man that gives us no honest reason to believe he will reform even 1% of what ails us….and we send to Congress a crew of folks similarly disinterested in the public good. This “best in the world” pragmatism is nothing but vain conceit; in reality, it speaks more to condemn the rest of the world for THEIR low state than to lift us up. Perhaps never have so many been so proud over such a dubious distinction.
Life is short. Why not actually FIX something while we are here?
Jack
And no, it is NOT “the best path to prosperity” unless you are a helpless pragmatist who limits himself only to those choices that are convenient and without risk. It’s so ironic to find folks who laud the audacity of the American Revolution but who would have no part in revolutionizing anything today. If we are so satisfied under this soft economic tyranny, why do we have any right to complain at all? Where are the men and women who will put a stop to this? Sadly, many of them are telling themselves how good we have it here.OP
I would agree that we have fallen far away from the constitution, etc, but I don’t see any real options right now to change things. As far as I can see, the best anyone can do right now is try to do “damage control”, and try to “keep the boat afloat”, even though it has hit the proverbial rocks, and is in danger of sinking entirely and becoming something like one of the semi-socialist European nations.Until there is a larger movement to change things (someone steps forward, or something happens to motivate people in the U.S. to go back to a conservative, constitutional America), I don’t think I have any other option than to “hold my nose” and vote for whoever the least damaging option is for the U.S.
I do think we have a pretty good economic system though, as evidenced by the fact that we have, for 60 years or so, been the most prosperous nation in the world, and have enjoyed the highest standard of living of any nation in world history.
Jack
OP, if I may challenge your thinking without being patently offensive…..
You are thinking EXACTLY as I’d want you to think if I were the evil wizard behind the curtain. Why is that? It’s because this kind of thinking will NEVER bring about any change unless SOMEBODY ELSE initiates the change. And if EVERYBODY thinks this way, there is no “somebody else” left to do anything about it. This is exactly the way you have been encouraged to think, and if I may be so bold, these kinds of thoughts are our BIGGEST problem. It’s not the freeloaders or the criminals—or the scoundrels in government. No, our biggest problem is that so very many American who THINK they are politically savvy and adept and informed are actually providing the massive INERTIA necessary to defend the status quo for those who actually own our government. You listen to the news more than most, but even so, you don’t appear to be any more likely to work toward reform than anybody else. This is a huge problem, and I submit that it is the very INTENT of the broadcasters you listen to that at the end of the day, you should NOT become an activist.There’s a great quote by Don Marquis (a dead humorist from the 1800s.) He says, “If you make people think they are thinking, they will love you, but if you really make them think, they will hate you.” Well, that’s what these news/analysis/opinion shows have figured out—that people can be made to THINK they are thinking, even when they are not. People feel sophisticated and enlightened when in actuality, they are being duped into settling for FAR less than what is rightly theirs….and all the time, blaming our mess on the apathy of OTHERS, though they themselves have invested no study in the root causes, no planning in the solution of it, and not one iota of effort except to complain from time to time.
Again, not to be patently offensive, but if everyone thought like you are now thinking, nothing would EVER get reformed. I hope you’re not thinking on having children, because you’ll be doing just as every generation of Americans before you has done: handing off the country to the next generation a little worse off than it was when it was handed to you.
So my hopes are for you to have a paradigm shift.
OP
Jack, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that there is some people(s) or interest(s), which control the media, news, books, etc, and are intent on brainwashing U.S. citizens in order to advantage themselves. I agree that there is some of that, and that there are groups and individuals with agendas, but I don’t think there is some sort of “collective agreement” between any groups or powers in the U.S., to “control” us on some grand scale. Maybe I am not understanding you correctly, but that is what it seems to me that you are saying.Our government and how it functions is important to me, but I don’t see any way to change it other than to vote, give financial support, and speak out to other citizens about what kinds of changes we need to make. I am opposed to any means other than peaceful ones, in attempting to change our government. I believe the Bible says that is how Christians should go about changing the Government, which is why I have this belief.
I believe the legacy which Christians should be concerned about leaving their children is to raise them up in the ways of the Lord, and leave an example in our own lives of character, Godliness, and good stewardship in our own lives of our abilities and talents. Changing anything for the better, including government, is a good thing, but I would not single it out as a responsibility of Christians anymore than I would any number of things which we do on this earth.
Jack
====Jack, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that there is some people(s) or interest(s), which control the media, news, books, etc, and are intent on brainwashing U.S. citizens in order to advantage themselves. I agree that there is some of that, and that there are groups and individuals with agendas, but I don’t think there is some sort of “collective agreement” between any groups or powers in the U.S., to “control” us on some grand scale. Maybe I am not understanding you correctly, but that is what it seems to me that you are saying.====OP, does it matter how many are in charge by way of unfair advantages over us? If it’s one guy, or if it’s the Federal Reserve Board, or if it’s the CFR or the Bildebergers or the Bohemiam Grove crowd—-does it really matter? The fact of the matter is that some number of people, whose names you and I are not permitted to know (in many cases) do indeed hold a powerful and unfair advantage in our markets and government. This is an indisputable fact. If you are interested in tracking it down, do two things: 1) Follow the money. 2) See who normally wins no matter what happens. That’s how you find the “wizard” if there is one. And I’m sure there’s much more of one that you realize so far.
====Our government and how it functions is important to me, but I don’t see any way to change it other than to vote, give financial support, and speak out to other citizens about what kinds of changes we need to make. I am opposed to any means other than peaceful ones, in attempting to change our government.====
OK, first of all, unless you have some particular magic, “voting” is not helping a thing. Romney is better than Obama like arsenic is better than strychnine. In neither case does a vote “help”. And for those who take the view (as you seem to do) that it is our “duty” at least to keep things from getting “worse”—so that’s why a vote for Romney is better than a vote for Obama—I would note that things are still going to get worse under Romney. So the senselessness continues as the nation excuses itself for continuing to vote scoundrels into office. Nobody seems to want to stop the machine altogether and fix the ongoing corruption.
As to giving your “financial support”, a great portion of the dollars you are giving go to feed the corruption. You are helping to fund the rampant regulation and the incessant wars. You are funding abortions and illegal searches and seizures. You are funding interminable benefits for former members of Congress, as well as a host of unconstitutional governmental expenditures. So at what point to you, as a co-financier, put a stop to it?
As to “speak(ing) out to other citizens about what kinds of changes we need to make“, what’s the point of speaking out if it is not to influence people to action? None, right? OK, so far, so good. So now tell me what’s the point of speaking out if that speaking out is not effective? And what’s the point of implementing ANY reformative strategy if that strategy is not effective? Isn’t success the natural goal of any strategy?
Yet, if I read you right, your strategy is to vote, pay taxes, and to encourage others to do the same in hopes that somehow, some “grass fire” will grow to such a blaze that Washington will be forced to change by the strength of public opinion. Two questions: 1) How’s that going? 2) If it fails, does this absolve you of any further responsibility as a co-owner of this nation?
Jack
====I believe the BIble says that is how Christians should go about changing the Government, which is why I have this belief.====I’m not aware of any Bible passage regarding Christians “changing the government”. Nor am I aware of any passages regarding how Christians are to conduct themselves as voting members of a constitutional republic (in which the citizens oversee the government). There was no such thing in view in the First Century when these documents were penned. So please share what passage you’re getting this idea from, as well as your reasoning for why the passage ought to be assumed to apply to us today.
Oh, I forgot to reply to this:
====I am opposed to any means other than peaceful ones, in attempting to change our government.====
In case you were wondering, I’m not in favor of a violent conflict. To put it bluntly, the American public is, in the aggregate, too stupid to oversee their own government as it is. If they got mad and slaughtered the government in an armed conflict, they’d STILL be too stupid to know what to do next. And if they get SMART first, no armed rebellion should be necessary. (I say they’re stupid because of the way that we can directly observe their aggregate and habitual actions—and not because I’m a mean person.)
====I believe the legacy which Christians should be concerned about leaving their children is to raise them up in the ways of the Lord, and leave an example in our own lives of character, Godliness, and good stewardship in our own lives of our abilities and talents.====
Slow down there, Mister. If YOUR generation continues on this present course, then you are handing YOUR children a legacy of massive public debt and corruption. YOU are responsible for this and there is no trump card. Religion is no exemption for one’s responsibility to the society in which he lives. Nor is discouragement.
==== Changing anything for the better, including government, is a good thing, but I would single it out as a responsibility of Christians anymore than I would any number of things which we do on this earth.====
This is approaching a logical fallacy of this sort: ****Since “A” is not the only letter in the alphabet, it is not an important letter.****
If you, as a Christian, take on more lifestyle chores than your non-Christian neighbor, your extra burden is not a fitting excuse for not taking care of the things that EVERYBODY has to take care of. Your grass needs to be mowed as well as his. You ought not let yours grow three feet tall and then excuse the mess of your yard by saying you were busy with church or with Bible study or some other religious activity.
Again, you are thinking exactly as an evil wizard would want you to think. On the one hand, you seem to believe you have a stake in this nation, and yet on the other, you act as if it’s more or less wholly out of your hands.
What you don’t seem to understand is that while the ordinary people are doing NOTHING meaningful toward reforming the nation for the good of the society, there are a great many unscrupulous people who are working VERY hard to manipulate the nation into serving their selfish purposes. It’s like dropping your end of the tug-a-war rope in order to go “vote” and then being surprised when you get back that the bad guy at the other end of the rope has won the game.
This next point will, no doubt, sound insane to a great many readers, but YOU are responsible for the fate of this nation, OP. It matters very little on your account that *I* am also responsible for it, and so is the next guy and his neighbor, too. If you took your responsibility as an inviolable principle, this would be a different place, for you would imagine for yourself no other way out than to FIND a way to influence others to reformative action. Yet as it is, you excuse yourself from such a fight—in one way by some claim of religious priorities, and in another, that no one else has yet led a successful movement to which you may peacefully and conveniently join yourself. So on the one hand, you absolve yourself with the dubious trump card of a religion that simply does not speak to the matter in its founding documents, and on the other you think you hold a better view of things than do most—a view that others would do well to hold, too.
If YOU get a pass from activism on account of your religion, OP, then just WHO do you think is supposed to roll up his sleeves and transform the nation on your watch?
I really think you need to re-analyze these things. Your present position holds too many contradictions.
And again, I’m not trying to be offensive here, but I’m also not pulling any punches. I am telling you exactly what I think.
Jack
OP, here’s a quick thought for you.A guy is overweight, so he tries his friend’s idea of cutting out all orange and red foods. It doesn’t work. So he abandons the new diet and settles on being fat forever. “At least I tried”, he says.
What reason is there for trying to influence one’s neighbors, and for voting, except for trying to make things better? If those measures are constantly FAILING to make things better, then are we absolved of further responsibility?
Why not, unlike the fat man in the example above, try something NEW? Yet practically NOBODY is interested in trying something new. Instead, they seem much more interested in the “at least I tried” attitude. They have lost sight of the marvelously practical idea that problems ought to be solved, and have settled instead for labeling themselves with vain labels such as “enlightened”, or perhaps “conservative” or “constitutionalist”. Never mind that they are not authentic representations of the paradigms with which they label themselves; what seems to be more important is what they THINK about themselves, and not what they ACTUALLY are.
Indeed, if I fancy myself a “champion of liberty” because I generally espouse the paradigm of liberty, then I can easily do whatever mental math is required to make our lack of liberty everyone else’s fault. Thus could I excuse myself, as many do, from any appreciable level of responsibility for the sad state of the Union.
Had Jesus and his apostles thought this way, hardly anyone today would have ever HEARD of Christianity. In a very short time, they accomplished some paradigm-shattering reforms within the society they founded. It was all peaceful (though others reacted to it violently), and it was all based on changing the way people think. Word spread like wildfire because of how radically different that way of thinking was from that of the greater society.
OP
We agree that there is corruption, and you believe that there are certain people with these advantages, and I (probably) believe it’s a different crowd. Bottom line, there is a good (bad) amount of corruption in our government. What to do about it besides “voting”, I am not sure. You thought I meant “taxes” when I said “financial”, but I meant other-than-taxes giving to support people, organizations, etc. Taxes are, for the most part, a waste of American’s dollars.I agree that voting hasn’t gotten us very far, and only has slowed down the (mostly) decline of the U.S. as a nation. My belief is that it will take an event (war, great leader, etc), to turn things around. If such an event or person comes about before the U.S. (if it ever does) fall to pieces, I don’t know.
Speaking out helps change people’s views. You seem to believe that “speaking out” is a good thing to do, as you are often in the act of trying to change people’s views (actually, you are right now, I believe, in talking to me.)
I do not expect anyone else to change the government, but if they want to make that a priority in their life, or love politics and want to use their abilities to effect change, then that’s great. As I said before, I don’t believe that changing our government is anymore important than say, changing people’s views on eating so that they live longer, more healthful lives, or encouraging people to be better stewards of their money so that they can live better lives and help others. There are many worthy “earthly” causes, and I don’t believe everyone has to devote their time to any particular cause, but should do as they conscience dictates. We should all seek to improve what needs to be improved though, as we can find an opportunity, and I don’t believe our government has priority over all the rest.
Your “thought”, I agree with-we are responsible for continually seeking to achieve our responsibilities, no matter how many times we fail.
I’m still not sure what you would propose to do to change our government, besides voting?
Jack
====As I said before, I don’t believe that changing our government is anymore important than say, changing people’s views on eating so that they live longer, more healthful lives, or encouraging people to be better stewards of their money so that they can live better lives and help others. There are many worthy “earthy” causes, and I don’t believe everyone has to devote their time to any particular cause, but should do as they conscience dictates.====OP, you seem to be subscribing to the notion that “since I cleaned my bathroom, I’m not responsible for cleaning my kitchen”.
You seem to separate “earthly” causes from other causes, apparently with some hierarchy of priorities in mind. Interestingly, your example of helping people to eat better is nowhere to be found in the Bible—just as reforming the government is missing from there, too. So you seem to see it as an array of arbitrary choices—any of which would be acceptable areas in which to apply ourselves.
What I believe you are missing is your RIGHTFUL RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen in a constitutional republic. Some of those foreigners who hate us would gladly kill YOU if they had opportunity. And why? Because YOUR military occupies their homelands and YOUR Federal Government gives aid from YOUR tax dollars to the tyrants who control them and YOUR Congress fails to make your national media sources tell the truth about things and so forth. Indeed, YOU voted for a McCain or an Obama, for a Bush or a Gore—all these are the types of people who continue the corruption and the tyranny. So YOU, in their good judgment, are part of the same nation that they hate.
The challenge will be to get YOU to see it this way. In your view, you are distinct from your national society. In your view, what they believe and do at the governmental level does not depend on you in the least, and that they do it with your implicit support is not intolerable to you. You see some of their misdeeds and as an “innocent bystander”, you say “tisk tisk”, never realizing that it’s YOUR job to make them stop. They are the bully to the world, and you won’t make them stop. Instead, you just stand by and watch as they do misdeeds—most of which you don’t even know about. They violate the rights of your fellow citizens, and you don’t stand up to defend those rights. Indeed, they violate YOUR rights and you do nothing to stop it.
And if you want to take a more religious view of it, they violate truth and justice every second of the day, yet you do nothing about it.
This is the problem. You and those like you, who SHOULD be overseeing the government but are not. You claim the RIGHTS, but not the RESPONSIBILITIES that go with them. You claim the freedom to choose your own vocation, avocation, and entertainment, but do not perceive the least amount of responsibility for putting out the fires of society. You want the town tennis court and concert hall, but you don’t want the volunteer fire department—unless it can be had without you having to serve on it yourself.
I hope you see where I’m going here. And again, this isn’t pointed at you to be offensive, but to be effective. Nothing personal at all here.
====I’m still not sure what you would propose to do to change our government, besides voting?====
I figured out the political solution already, but found a more fundamental problem that has to be solved first. The political solution is at http://www.ruleoflawrestoration.com/
The fundamental obstacle to which I referred is that people don’t even know what “rule of law” is and worse, they don’t CARE. So the BEGINNING of my work on that cause is this book: http://www.characternotincluded.com/
My goal is to find out how to change people’s paradigms so as to restore this nation to health. Figuring out the right remedies is not so hard; it’s getting people to care enough to “do the math” themselves (and to admit the truth that is revealed by that “math”)—that’s the hard part.
One will not change this nation by running for the Presidency or by joining a political party. No, our mess runs much deeper than that. The people are the source of all the power, as well as of all the problems. Change the people and you change the nation.
Rule of Law Restoration | Sensibly restoring the rule of law to The United States of America
The Rule of Law Restoration is currently in a suspended state for lack of public participation and will not be active for the 2012 election cycle. Since the public interest in the rule of law is currently very low, it is necessary for us to remedy this problem before ROLR can be successful. So we…
OP
When I said “Eating healthy” was a good thing to teach people, I was using that as an example to say that: there are many good thing we can do with our time, and government is only one of them. I put much less importance on it than you, I believe, although I think it’s a very worthy use of one’s time. Neither is “in the Bible”, and taking on either as something to spend our time on is “arbitrary”, in my view, and not a responsibility. I am not the U.S. government, and I do not HAVE to reform it, although I would be supportive of an effort to reform it.I think it’s commendable that you are going to so much trouble to change the Government, although as I said before, I think it will take some major “happening”, such as a war, economic depression, or a more oppressive government, etc, to make people really step up and seek to change things. This happened to a degree during the “tea party” voting which helped kick the Democrats out of office. I know you don’t see that as progress, but it is an example of what I’m talking about (it happened because the government wasn’t listening to the people’s saying NO to the passing of healthcare-a blatant disregard of what so many Americans wanted.)
The nation won’t change until it suffers in some way, and I don’t think people are interested in changing things right now, which is one reason I do not do more. It think that given the way things are right now, it would be almost like fighting the tide.
Jack
OP, if I may be blunt, I think you need to take a HUGE step back and listen to what you are saying. You’re just writing one platitude after another.====I believe, although I think it’s a very worthy use of one’s time. Neither is “in the Bible”, and taking on either as something to spend our time on is “arbitrary”, in my view, and not a responsibility. I am not the U.S. government, and I do not HAVE to reform it, although I would be supportive of an effort to reform it.====
I see. So if I dedicate a big chunk of my life to this cause, and get enough others to come along such that some appreciable level of success is achieved, you don’t mind sharing in the fruits of that labor, but you will not lift a finger yourself to see it accomplished. Gotcha.
====I think it’s commendable that you are going to so much trouble to change the Government, although as I said before, I think it will take some major “happening”, such as a war, economic depression, or a more oppressive government, etc, to make people really step up and seek to change things.====
You seem to be summarily dismissing one very real possibility—that people could do the right thing BECAUSE it is the right thing, and not because they have been somehow FORCED to do it against their will. How is it that you know so much about cultures, OP? How is it that you know that some calamity is required to get people to change their paradigms? I reject this wholly as an unfounded presumption—as well as a really convenient excuse for you not to do anything.
====The nation won’t change until it suffers in some way, and I don’t think people are interested in changing things right now, which is one reason I do not do more. It think that given the way things are right now, it would be almost like fighting the tide.====
It IS like fighting the tide, and you seem intent on seeing to it that, as for your part in the matter, it won’t get any easier. Rather then lending a hand, you’re content to stand by and watch in case I pull off a miracle without your help. Then you can jump on as a fair-weather friend of the cause and talk about how you’ve always wished such reforms could be possible.
You are NOT passive in this, OP, as much as you might like to fancy yourself as such. I say this because you’ll surely vote for Romney as opposed to Obama (neither of whom I support), and you’ll try to influence others to do the same. You’ll try to “get out the vote” and you’ll prefer Fox News over CNN. In short, you’ll contribute to the very “tide” you say you wish were transformed. And you’ll resist digging any deeper into the facts of what time it REALLY is. You will continue to speak in unsupported platitudes, and others hearing you repeat these things yet one more time will consider these ideas all the more certain, though they are far from certain.
So that brings us full circle. In the beginning, I said that you are thinking EXACTLY the way I’d want you to think if I were the evil wizard behind the curtain protecting the status quo. Indeed, after such a long back-and-forth on this topic, you seem quite resistant to any new paradigm on the matter. This makes you the perfect consumer/voter, for not only will your daily activities present zero challenge to the status quo, but you have got your mind made up not to do so—-that it is neither your business nor your responsibility, and that you are somehow disjunct from those acts carried out by the Government of the United States.
In this way, you flatly REJECT the stated vision of the Founders for this nation. You do not WANT a constitutional republic, for having a chance to participate in one, you decline. Rather, you want a government that gives you an economy by which you can earn lots of money if you’re more assertive than the next guy, and beyond that, you don’t seem to care too much what they do. Even if it’s murder, overthrow, genocide, and the unfair exploitation of the world’s resources for their own personal gain, you don’t seem to be bothered at that. You don’t even seem to be bothered that those less assertive and talented than you can barely keep food on the table for the high taxes and the government’s protectionist favors for the largest corporations. You will not oppose the government on their behalf, either.
It’s a shame that you won’t take these matters as being obvious without the Bible telling you to do that. Of course, in no place does the Bible purport to be a handbook on how to be a member of a constitutional republic, but you read it as if its silence in this matter is not silence at all, but a warning or perhaps even a prohibition. What you’re NOT going to be able to do, however, is to cook up some biblical argument for how Christian principles like truth, frugality, fairness, justice, responsibility, self-sacrifice for others, and courage can be righteously dispensed with when it comes to maintaining and improving the greater society in which the Christian lives.
You have not yet begun to THINK through these matters as they deserve.
